Norman Rafferty ([info]normanrafferty) wrote,
@ 2006-06-06 10:36:00
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Just like the essay on "what is furry"... here's to debunkery.

Myth: Other fandoms get more respect than furry fans.

Any time any kind of fandom is represented in the mass media, it's for comic relief. The Emmy-award winning show Fraiser had a science-fiction convention episode where they portrayed the attendees as sexually-repressed and socially-challenged, and a big-time author as suffering from psychotic delusions. Kevin Smith has made an entire career out of this stereotype, up to and including appearing on The Tonight Show with the specific purpose of mocking the attendees. Even the infamous "furry" episode of CSI was followed by an episode portraying goths in a worse light.

Myth: Other fandoms do not have the reputation for sexual perversity that furries do.

Harry Potter slash has gotten major news coverage. And many folks have boycotted DragonCon, one of the biggest sci-fi cons, because of charges of child molestation levied against the con's founder.

Myth: News stories portray furry in the worst possible light.

On this, I'm going to agree with [info]chipotle's point that people only remember the worst bits. The worst part about the Vanity Fair article is that it interviewed real people; the people who come off the worst are the "furry-haters". Just like how role-playing games have gone from Satanism to a joke on Spongebob Squarepants ... just like how goth has gone from, er, Satanism to kid's entertainment icons like on Danny Phantom and Disney's Fillmore ... furry culture is going to blow over. (If it already hasn't.)

Myth: The media only want to show us in the worst possible light.

While there are some reporters who do, others are genuinely curious. And the current attitude of locking the doors and not talking to anyone only exacerbates the situation -- it makes what goes on sound far more exciting than what is going on. When Discovery Channel interviewed furries for their TV show, the phrase, "Cameras aren't allowed inside the convention" sounds far more salacious than what was really going on.

Myth: Avoiding media at all costs, and getting completely hysterical when any news comes out which has anything negative, is the only way to keep furry fandom safe.

Safe from what, exactly? Puritanism aside, the news media have always had a reputation for aggrandizing the negative. More than ever, we live in an era where television, radio, and internet portals exist for the primary purpose of reinforcing hateful stereotypes. Unfortunately, getting hot and bothered about those fora is counter-productive -- they exist for the purpose of inciting controversy. The decade of the 2000s has shown the maxim of, "If you're explaining, you're losing." The proper way to fight media negativity is with media positivity. (I'm especially proud of venues like Anthrocon where they're getting icons of entertainment such as Peter Laird to show up and lend legitimacy.)

Myth: All furries are skunk-fucking bestiality-fetishists.

This mythi is reducto ad absurdum. Not everyone who played Grant Theft Auto turned into a career felon. Not everyone who read Anne Rice became a goth homosexual. Not everyone who read Harry Potter became a pedophile. Not everyone who listened to rock music committed suicide. Not everyone who went to church grew up Christian. Once again with "explaining and losing", anyone who makes such a claim isn't going to let any silly thing like facts and reason dissuade them, so arguing with them is a waste of time.

[New] Myth: all furries wear costumes.

I didn't realize this one at first, but it's becoming increasingly clear that a lot of folks think "furry" = "fursuiter". The fursuiter is the most photogenic of the con-goers; after all, people in t-shirts and jeans aren't very exciting to look at. Television's portrayal of furries always includes them, not to mention cheap jabs in comics always have someone in a costume. I suspect a large part of this is that the prime movers of furrydom --- the writers and artists -- don't get a lot of face time in the media. For example, I don't think people believe that Peter Laird wears a turtle suit all the time.

Myth: ___'s not "furry".

No, ____ is furry. Furry is a tag, not a box. And some things are more furry than others.

Myth: Sex is bad.

Sadly, I live in the United States where even sex education is scary and controversial. In SeanBaby's article on the ten worst fandoms, even he had to admit that at least furries get some, and on a regular basis.

The most wonderful thing about furry culture is how it emphasizes social grouping and interaction more than any other fandom. It's not about collecting, speculation, and commercialism; it's not about determinist fantasies of how life should exist; it's not about blind worship of corporate intellectual properties; it's about people who think furries are neat. And that's awesome.


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[info]nicked_metal
2006-06-06 02:47 pm UTC (link)
The most wonderful thing about furry culture is how it emphasizes social grouping and interaction more than any other fandom.

Does it really? I think it's more directly concerned with issues of identity, but I don't percieve it to be more about social grouping and interaction than other things. I mean, just because 'serious furries' get together and go to conventions and whatever doesn't mean that 'serious collectors' and 'serious fans' don't do the same thing. I'd say that roleplaying is far more directly about social grouping and interaction, seeing as how it's completely impossible without that, whereas furriness is possible in isolation (if I understand it correctly).

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[info]normanrafferty
2006-06-06 02:57 pm UTC (link)
While I would agree that role-playing is up there, there's no such thing as a "role-playing convention". There are gaming conventions, sure.

I used to think the #1 reason furries went to cons was to meet the creators of the stuff and to get more stuff. After ten years, I've seen attendance go up but not a proportional rise in sales dollars, either in the art show or on the convention floor, so they're not going there to buy stuff. And considering that most folks don't even know who the Guests of Honor are, it's certainly not for that. The only thing I can come up with is that folks are going there to meet each other.

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(no subject) - [info]nicked_metal, 2006-06-06 03:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-06 03:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nicked_metal, 2006-06-06 03:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]antimon, 2006-06-06 05:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nicked_metal, 2006-06-07 04:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-08 02:32 am UTC (Expand)
Well, I'm not sure I'd call "stamp collecting" a fandom.... - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-08 11:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Well, I'm not sure I'd call "stamp collecting" a fandom.... - [info]xydexx, 2006-06-09 06:06 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Well, I'm not sure I'd call "stamp collecting" a fandom.... - [info]nicked_metal, 2006-06-13 11:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Well, I'm not sure I'd call "stamp collecting" a fandom.... - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-14 03:52 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]rigelkitty
2006-06-06 04:16 pm UTC (link)
Myth: Other fandoms get more respect than furry fans.

I think you're cherry-picking. Two can play that game.

Japanese Imports - a recent 3-page feature article on Katsucon in DC from the Washington Post. Nary a negatory tone.

Furries have never gotten that level of respect in the media.

Myth: Other fandoms do not have the reputation for sexual perversity that furries do.

Do a Technorati search on "furries". Count how many people in the past week reference furries as people who have sex in animal costumes. Now repeat that with "Harry Potter" or "trekkies" or pretty much anything else and let me know when you find one that beats our score for equivalent references. For bonus points, count the number that make that reference negatively.

The worst part about the Vanity Fair article is that it interviewed real people

The worst part of the VF article is that they interviewed real people - and then cherry-picked the most extremist of them and threw in crush fetishists and the author of a book called "Deviant Desires" which includes a cover picture of someone having baked beans poured down their asscrack.

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[info]normanrafferty
2006-06-06 04:59 pm UTC (link)
I think you're cherry-picking.

I stand by it. The top-rated Viacom show Fairly Odd Parents has repeated the joke about comic books being written by 40-year-old men who live with their moms so often, one episode actually features a live-action segment of Patton Oswalt -- one of the "Comedians of Comedy" who goes on tour in the persona of a 40-year-old man who lives with his mom -- as a 40-year-old man who lives with his mom who writes comic books. Millions of people saw that episode, most of them pre-teenage children who aren't allowed on the internet without parental supervision.

Comic-book fans are portrayed as worse than furry fans. However, comic-book fans have gotten over it. In fact, they've so gotten over it, it's now a cliched joke.

Do a technorati search on 'furry'.

On MSN.com, after 'furry', the first sex hit is "FREE CARTOON SEX! HENTAI, HEROES, DIZNEY, FURRIES, BONDAGE, TEENS ... " on www.freecartoonsex.com. Wow, furry is listed after anime, comic books, and Disney. ^.^

SA fora driving up the hit count artifically aside ... the internet is a vast cauldron of hate. Nickelodeon is educating children that comic books are for social pariahs. Doesn't that bother you?

The worst part of the VF article is that they interviewed real people - and then cherry-picked the most extremist of them and threw in crush fetishists and the author of a book called "Deviant Desires" which includes a cover picture of someone having baked beans poured down their asscrack.

Yeah, sex is bad. For shame that Vanity Fair interviewed a sex expert who said that furry fetishism was just another fetish. (They probably should've talked more about the vore art that was up for sale in the art show?)

Conventions are for imperfect people as well as perfect people, and imperfect people are more interesting. The lesson of the Burned Furs is that if you want 2,000 people to come to your party, they're not all going to be 2,000 people you're gonna like ... and constantly shouting how you're not one of those people is a losing argument.

I'll repeat that I look forward to more conventions with more interesting, interviewable people.

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(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-06 05:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-06 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]typographer, 2006-06-06 06:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-06 09:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]xydexx, 2006-06-06 11:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Priorities - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-10 06:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-07 12:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athelind, 2006-06-07 06:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jadedfox, 2006-06-07 12:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tremaine, 2006-06-07 04:09 am UTC (Expand)

[info]jirris_midvale
2006-06-06 06:20 pm UTC (link)
Anime fans also used to be considered those creepy guys who put honorifics after people's names and watched cartoon pornography. Anime fandom has exploded into 'OMG HUGE' and since it's a love of an exotic pop-culture at it's core, it's bound to make some people see it as a mass-cultural exchange more than anything else. Not to mention the prevalency of anime and its easy-to-consume packaging (turn on your tv for a day. Channel surf. mark off how many times you see a japanese cartoon), it's no wonder how media can approach it and easily be able to tell what it's about.

I mean, most of that article was boilerplate filler I've read in a hundred other places.

Furries can't even agree what the furry fandom is about.

We're also a 'new' fandom and still testing the waters, so people don't quite have their sea-legs when it comes to dealing with stuff. Nevermind that on the whole, furries are pretty damn insecure outside 'their people'.

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(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-06 07:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jirris_midvale, 2006-06-06 07:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-06 08:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athelind, 2006-06-07 06:40 am UTC (Expand)

[info]xydexx
2006-06-07 12:04 am UTC (link)
Furries have never gotten that level of respect in the media.
...yet.

Or maybe they have. Here's where I make the obligatory mention of Invasion Of The Furries—probably the best media coverage the fandom has gotten and nary a negative tone, either.

We have gotten positive press in the past; we can do it again.

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(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-07 05:15 am UTC (Expand)

[info]turbinerocks
2006-06-09 05:10 am UTC (link)
Furry fandom is a DIY fandom, so comparing it to big money, billions-in-revenue Japanese animated cinema, is sorta missing the point.

Furries are fringier than Trek, and this is reflected on the internet, but that's the point. A DIY fandom will always be fringier than something that is created around a gigantic Paramount property or the biggest selling series of childrens' books in the world.

Apples and oranges, it's useless to compare furries to other fandoms in terms of respect.

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(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-09 05:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 06:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-09 03:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-09 10:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 11:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-10 01:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-10 01:53 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-10 12:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-10 01:44 am UTC (Expand)

[info]tombfyre
2006-06-06 04:23 pm UTC (link)
The last point touches on one of the many reasons why I'm glad I live up in the great white north. ^^ Sex isn't bad. In fact, most people don't give a damn what you do behind closed doors. We've probably got just as many taboo spewing loonies as you do down south, but they most definitely don't seem to hold as much sway over the masses.

Good debunking. ^^ I agree with your points, and generally wish people would just chill out about the whole thing. Lots of people know I'm a fur, and not a one of them cares. Contra-wise, the people who might freak out don't know, namely because they've never asked.

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[info]toy_dragon
2006-06-06 04:44 pm UTC (link)
'The most wonderful thing about furry culture is how it emphasizes social grouping and interaction more than any other fandom. It's not about collecting, speculation, and commercialism; it's not about determinist fantasies of how life should exist; it's not about blind worship of corporate intellectual properties; it's about people who think furries are neat. And that's awesome."

And right there, you've singled out one great strength of furry fandom that so many people spend so much time attempting to portray as contributing to some of its greatest weaknesses.

Every point of myth you listed is, indeed, something that furry fans have helped turn into myths themselves by not seeing things in perspective. To put it simply "they overreacted, as furries are given to do" - one myth about furry that isn't quite so much a myth.

But, something that I rarely see asked is "why do furries react to these things so much?" At most, many people merely shrug and say "because furries iz stupid lawl."

But, no. I think the reason furry fans have "overreacted" so much is because unlike so many other "fandoms", furry fans, historically to this point at least, have invested much more into their group than many, or most, other fandoms and subcultures. Furry quite simply means a lot more, is closer to being a core component of a person's life, than for instance videogames appear to typically mean to gamers.

In fact, I feel that in recent years some of the efforts from within the fandom to simply stamp out some furry fan trends and habits are misguided in that they wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Many of these efforts and the people who espouse them sound largely as if they want to improve furry by making "more like that fandom over there, the respectable one!"

Which of course, is a view predicated upon the myth that other fandoms have it better than furry. But even taking that into account, some folks want to get rid of what makes furry unique, merely because that facet has been misapplied by some people within the fandom. Of course, people who are hopelessly mired in a present culture of cynicism often extoll the virtues of not investing such concern into anything. Those who've perpetuated hateful stereotypes of furry specifically, have often claimed that furry fans are merely "weak, dysfunctional and needy losers" who stick together in their fantasy culture because they can't hack it in the mano-e-mano mainstream culture.

You know what? For those people: "oh, go find a rope and piss up it!" Ain't your business. We have a subculture to tend to here. I think it's time more of us get to work.

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Squeaky wheels need to be greased.
[info]normanrafferty
2006-06-06 05:14 pm UTC (link)
The "over-reaction" myth has been played up for comic effect. Furry fora remain a popular target for trolls because there are many young, easily-impressionable, defensive folks with internet connections. To quote Bart Simpson, "making teenagers depressed is like shooting fish in a barrel."

I've seen this abuse in the comic fandom, I've seen it in the goth fandom, I've seen in the gaming fandom. Furries think they're unique in being "fursecuted", somehow. I'm constantly boggled by folks who tell me that Clerks or Jay & Silent Bob are "funny" yet have no sense of humor about furry stuff.

I suspect a lot of it has the "excluded middle" fallacy. For example, there's the stereotype that one is either exclusively heterosexual, upright, and "normal" ... or flamingly homosexual, perverse, and "weird". Bisexuality is such an alien concept that we're still seeing TV shows and movies using the "Three's Company" plotline of "guy pretends to be gay so woman will divulge secrets", thirty years later. So if someone's a "furry", they've got to be into bestiality and plushophilia and fursuits -- all of them!

I also see a growing age divide in furrydom. Disney's Robin Hood, Tiny Toons, Omaha, Critters, and Albedo were all around before many of these new furries were even born. The new folks coming in are interested in Pokemon, Fruits Basket, Naruto, Sonic, Jak & Daxter, etc. Heck, some of them are in it because of the second-generation internet porn -- denying that furry is "about porn" is denying why these people are even on the stage to begin with. Saying "furry isn't about sex" is difficult, if not impossible, to prove. Furry isn't just about sex.

That brings me to the recurring point: somehow, sex is thought to be bad. Really, if adults aren't going to these furry cons to buy, trade, or sell pr0n, why are they there? Many of them don't even know the names of the Guests of Honor, much less who they are. Google searches on furry turn up hordes of adult images -- and not all the same ones!

Even if the argument was "won" ... then you have a bunch of adults getting together because they think cartoon animals are "neat". To mainstream people, that's even more pathetic that ogling Wonder Woman or She-Hulk.

And you're right about "work". If it's not all about angst and pr0n, I'd like to see more celebration of what there is.

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Greasy wheels are gross and icky - [info]dakhun, 2006-06-06 07:19 pm UTC (Expand)
I'm reminded of a joke I once heard ... - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-06 10:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Squeaky wheels need to be greased. - [info]higginsdragon, 2006-06-06 07:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Squeaky wheels need to be greased. - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-06 08:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Squeaky wheels need to be greased. - [info]furahi, 2006-06-26 07:11 am UTC (Expand)

[info]neutopian
2006-06-06 05:23 pm UTC (link)
This just in:

Overindulged white males with body-image issues and disposable incomes feel persecuted beyond all reason, considering themselves higher on the cross of suffering than actual oppressed minorities!

In other news, water is wet..

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[info]normanrafferty
2006-06-06 06:35 pm UTC (link)
You are the wind beneath my wings.

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(no subject) - [info]neutopian, 2006-06-06 07:33 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]potlan
2006-06-06 05:53 pm UTC (link)
No, ____ is furry. Furry is a tag, not a box. And some things are more furry than others.

I disagree. Furry IS a box. It's just invisible, people don't see it, especially furry artists. And this box starts and ends within the furry fandom. Furry art is first and foremost furry, that's why they call it that, not "art with furries in it". Same thing with fiction, film, animation, etc.

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[info]normanrafferty
2006-06-06 06:34 pm UTC (link)
You are correct that many can't see outside the box.

Furry is a box the way goth is a box. You won't find the word "goth" in an Poppy Z. Brite novel, a White Wolf game, in an Underworld trailer, the instructions of Devil May Cry 3, or in the Cradle of Filth liner notes.

Speaking as a salesman of furry products, you can sell furry to non-furries. You just have to think outside the box.

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(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-06 06:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]higginsdragon, 2006-06-06 07:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-07 03:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-07 04:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jirris_midvale, 2006-06-07 06:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-07 03:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-07 04:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]higginsdragon, 2006-06-07 05:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 12:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-10 01:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 01:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-06 08:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kenshin_dono, 2006-06-06 08:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Cocky is a tag, not a box* - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-06 09:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athelind, 2006-06-06 11:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 05:12 am UTC (Expand)

[info]xydexx
2006-06-07 12:14 am UTC (link)
A furry is an anthropomorphic animal.
Furry art is first and foremost art with furries in it.
A furry artist is someone who draws furries.

There are those who argue that furry art is only art created by/for people in the fandom, but to accept that definition would require people to make these weird psychic determinations as to whether J. Random Artist is involved in the fandom and what their intentions were when they were creating the piece and who they intended their audience to be and what size underwear they wear solely by looking at a picture of an anthropomorphic animal in order to determine whether it's furry or not, and that's just patently ludicrous.

Furry fandom is about anthropomorphic animals, period.

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(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-07 03:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-07 04:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-07 04:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-07 04:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-07 04:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-07 04:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rigelkitty, 2006-06-07 05:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-07 05:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 06:59 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-09 09:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 09:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-09 09:39 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 10:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-09 06:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-09 08:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tengoo, 2006-06-10 01:40 am UTC (Expand)
(is that pronounced like minigame or monogamy?) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-10 02:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]higginsdragon, 2006-06-10 03:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-09 09:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 10:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-09 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 11:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 12:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-10 12:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ex_radric52, 2006-06-10 05:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-08 02:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-08 03:53 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-08 06:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-08 07:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ahashverosh, 2006-06-09 07:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-09 09:56 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 10:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-09 06:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-09 08:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-09 10:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 11:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-09 10:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 11:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-09 11:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 11:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-10 12:50 am UTC (Expand)
The point - [info]potlan, 2006-06-10 02:11 am UTC (Expand)
Re: The point - [info]chipotle, 2006-06-10 11:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-07 04:55 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]xydexx, 2006-06-07 05:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-07 06:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athelind, 2006-06-07 06:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-07 06:26 am UTC (Expand)
Watch What You Wish For - [info]xydexx, 2006-06-07 06:34 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-07 06:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]potlan, 2006-06-07 06:32 am UTC (Expand)
We eat what we like! - [info]xydexx, 2006-06-07 06:35 am UTC (Expand)
Re: We eat what we like! - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-09 06:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-07 06:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athelind, 2006-06-07 06:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-09 06:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-09 10:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-09 11:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 12:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 12:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 12:49 am UTC (Expand)
Re: We eat what we like! - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:13 am UTC (Expand)
Re: We eat what we like! - [info]siege, 2006-06-09 10:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: We eat what we like! - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-09 11:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: We eat what we like! - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 12:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 12:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 12:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 01:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 01:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 01:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 01:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 02:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 01:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 01:17 am UTC (Expand)
I intend this sentence to have meaning. - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 01:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-10 01:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 02:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siege, 2006-06-10 02:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kinkyturtle, 2006-06-07 09:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ahashverosh, 2006-06-09 07:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ex_radric52, 2006-06-09 09:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 05:20 am UTC (Expand)
Splitting Hairs ... - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-09 12:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Splitting Hairs ... - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Splitting Hairs ... - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-09 11:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]xydexx, 2006-06-07 04:53 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athelind, 2006-06-07 06:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]xydexx, 2006-06-07 06:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-07 03:20 pm UTC (Expand)
VERY VERY VERY YES - [info]athelind, 2006-06-08 09:05 pm UTC (Expand)
I concur. - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-08 09:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: VERY VERY VERY YES - [info]potlan, 2006-06-09 05:06 am UTC (Expand)
Re: VERY VERY VERY YES - [info]ahashverosh, 2006-06-09 07:29 am UTC (Expand)
Re: VERY VERY VERY YES - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]higginsdragon, 2006-06-10 03:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-10 03:53 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]higginsdragon, 2006-06-10 04:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-10 04:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-10 06:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]_wastrel, 2006-06-11 12:33 pm UTC (Expand)
I'm a furry, and I know the difference. - [info]ilthuain, 2006-06-09 06:51 am UTC (Expand)
Re: I'm a furry, and I know the difference. - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:11 am UTC (Expand)

[info]shatterstripes
2007-01-18 05:21 am UTC (link)
Furry is a box some part of me keeps trying to put me into, and that some other parts want to never be stuck in.

There are people who happily call themselves "furry artists". I have always been uncomfortable with defining myself that way, even though I'm constantly drawing animal-headed people. The word "furry" creates expectations of acceptable styles, content, and artistic goals. If I draw something and think of it as "furry" while I draw it I go very different places than if I just happen to wander through that territory.

I need to do a no-goddamn-furries sketchbook again.

(Yes, this is a response to an old comment on an old post.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jirris_midvale
2006-06-06 06:07 pm UTC (link)
I like the fandom because it feeds upon itself. The upside to this is that we don't have the kind of sad souless consumerism that some larger fandoms do ("I waited in line for four hours to get a variant paint job season three Data!"), but the downside is that some inbreeding and a generally lower expectation of quality has taken hold.

Also, it appeals to my love of a free market -- because the fandom has very little intentional influence from books, movies, television, and other mass media consumer goods, the fandom creates and distributes most ot it's own entertainment in one form or another. As such, it's very easy for people in the fandom to achive 'rockstar' status. Certainly we need publishers for such things, but they either have little to no knowledge or care (just another customer) of the furry fandom, or it was created specifically for that need. Other fandoms don't have that at the same levels furries do.

I think for myth no.1, the reason this is percieved is that furry is younger/smaller than other fandoms, so other nerds poke fun at furries. That's where the perception comes from. The occational media coverage is the exception rather than the rule, and it's percieved as part of this larger but less well known nerd pissing contest for some reason.

On myth no.2, no.6, and no.8 -- well, sexuality is more openly accepted than in a lot of other places. Sure, there's elf babes in chainmail and scantily clad saucer-eyed robot pilots running around, but furry is the only place you'll hear about how the vixen in the bikini is totally hawt. Or how the burly wolf in the speedo with her is too, for that mater. Our country was founded by a bunch of puritians and that kinda stuck to our cultural identity. Sex is scary and bad, and if you like it outside of the 'man-on-top-lady-on-bottom-unf-unf-unf!' there's something wrong with you, especially if you're willing to talk about it, and most especially if it's a curvy skunk lady in a french maid uniform.

And as far as furry stuff goes, that's pretty vanilla.

No.7: yes, I totally agree. I remember a while ago on Penny Arcade's forum someone who claimed that Starfox, a railshooter/adventure game series with a complete cast of anthropomorphic animals, was 'furry' was flamed to hell and back. Jesus, it's not like he said 'that game gave me aids' or anything. It's like people think that when something is claimed to be one thing, someone has stuck a flag in it like some conquestador with thick glasses and bad hygiene.

What consitiutes 'anthromorphic animals' is a really broad spectrum of things. Animals that walk on four legs, talk, are shown with a human level of intelligence but live in a forest. Animals that swing glowsticks around to slammin' techno and have baggy bondage pants. There's 'genre furry' I guess, which is stuff that shows animal people doing things. This is still pretty damn broad though, and ranges from stuff like 'Maus' and 'Blacksad' to the afformentioned sexy pictures of a skunk in a maid outfit.

And the media myths. Ugh. I don't think that this will ever be solved in a nice way that can deal with the fragile ego of the nerd -- like you said, Sci-fi nerds (which have 60+ years on just about everything else in 20th century geek social groups) are still the butt of jokes based on stereotype. You're completely right that the only way to deal with that is to put forth positive examples of what the fandom is doing, because the bad ones will stick with it for a long time.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]nettiger
2006-06-06 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I will argue that there is a "generally lower expectation of quality" in the fandom, per se.

What you are seeing as a lower expectation of quality is actually a manifestation of what you mention later, that the "fandom creates and distributes most of its entertainment". There is no real hierarchy, and the line between "fan" and "creator" is a pencil, a sketchbook and a scanner away (unless you're a writer, in which case all you need is a net connection, a word processor and a lot of patience). Because it is so easy to slip across that line, and because we don't have an armed coterie deciding what is "good enough to see the light of day", you will see a lot of less-than-stellar work. But because there isn't a finite number of creator spots, you don't have the backstabbing and elitism as much as elsewhere. Another good artist in furrydom is a new colleague, not a potential competitor for your spot at an animation house. So people are more willing to offer help with substance. Yes, if all you have to go by is FurAffinity comment threads, it looks like all the "criticism" is just ego stroking and fanboying, but when you consider the regular art nights, art trades between artists of different calibers, and the general friendly critiquing that goes on, it's a different story.

In short, we grow our own artists, and while there's a lot of scrawny looking ugly seedlings just beginning to peek into the light of the sun, more of them will grow vibrant and beautiful in our fields than in most of the others.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]jirris_midvale, 2006-06-06 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nettiger, 2006-06-06 08:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jirris_midvale, 2006-06-07 01:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wbwolf, 2006-06-06 10:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-06 11:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]turbinerocks, 2006-06-09 07:21 am UTC (Expand)

[info]paka
2006-06-06 06:54 pm UTC (link)
You know, there are probably valid responses about why any fandom would be portrayed as sexualized weirdos. But for right now my mind is reeling at the idea of plot summaries and voice actor information for every Spongebob Squarepants episode ever made. Truly, the internet has everything.

(Reply to this)


[info]dakhun
2006-06-06 07:37 pm UTC (link)
The proper way to fight media negativity is with media positivity.

Yes, you can't fight negative examples by fighting the media, nor by fighting the people you perceive as being a negative example. When it comes down to it, all you can do is be the best example of what you want people to see in you, and hope someone notices.

Myth: All furries are skunk-fucking bestiality-fetishists.

It's always the quiet ones anyway. ;-)
Which, incidentally, makes it easier for them to present a better face than the showy noisy ones.

(Reply to this)


[info]collie13
2006-06-06 07:38 pm UTC (link)
Regarding social fan groups: wasn't there a time many years ago, back when science fiction was still being born, where there was a genuinely sincere belief that the community of science fiction fans would help make the world a better place?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Fans are slans
[info]normanrafferty
2006-06-06 08:39 pm UTC (link)
I came in on the tail-end of the scifi fan being mentally superior and more literate. Such a concept was derided heavily in McCrumb's "mysteries". These days, scifi is largely seen as the repository of fannish escapism and corporate intellectual property ... probably resulting from Roddenberry and Lucas' mercenary marketing coupled with comic-book collectorism.

We should heed the lessons of the slans.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Fans are slans - [info]collie13, 2006-06-06 09:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Fans are slans - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-06 11:45 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Fans are slans - [info]spotweld, 2006-06-07 01:53 am UTC (Expand)

[info]zexyz
2006-06-07 02:16 am UTC (link)
You go guru...

Wow, people on the internet sure like to argue. I was on pins and needles waiting for _____'s rebuttal. I don't watch Oprah anymore, and I my estrogen fix from someoone.

Here's the problem: Debate is dead. We killed it in the 1990's along with good haircuts and proper punk-rock. I get no information from the mainstream media. NONE. And the independant media is highly suspect and bi-parisan as all Hell.

The result is that EVERYTHING has become an emotional argument important enough for people to take their day of work to march to whatever maor city is having whatever protest in the name of Jeezum Crowe.

"Furry Freedom" (I gag!) is the most emotional argument of all because it's players are made entirely up of variations on Comic book guy, Napoleon Dynamite and Ally Sheedy's character from the breakfast club.

So I've gotta ask why a Rat so brilliant as you chooses an arena like this and a topic this without foreseeable resolution. Are you just that bored?

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]kinkyturtle
2006-06-07 03:59 am UTC (link)
You almost make it sound as if furry fandom isn't worth talking about.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]zexyz, 2006-06-08 01:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]normanrafferty, 2006-06-08 01:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zexyz, 2006-06-09 02:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athelind, 2006-06-07 06:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bossgoji, 2006-06-07 06:23 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ex_radric52
2006-06-09 09:58 am UTC (link)
If interested, these are my thoughts on some of the points brought up in the comments to your entry.

(Reply to this)


[info]mycroftb
2006-06-10 06:21 am UTC (link)
All good points, and short, I like it. The "what is furry?" post you link to in the beginning is a protected entry, so I couldn't read it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]normanrafferty
2006-06-10 06:23 am UTC (link)
Sorry about that. It's going to be revised and reposted soon.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]_wastrel
2006-06-11 01:00 pm UTC (link)
I think furry is also awesome because 1) it's generally a fandom which doesn't frown too heavily on people getting the chance to define themselves, even to the point of self-naming as opposed to nicknames which are almost always imposed, 2) there's generally more of a sense that enjoying life isn't a bad thing than not, and 3) even though I certainly don't think that commercial success is the equivalent of selling out or not being furry anymore (FAR from it), on some level I feel like tells some of the soulless corporations trying to build our mindscape for us that we can make our own entertainment - or reinterpret their conveniently pre-packaged entertainment at our leisure in ways in which they'd have never imagined. I like furry because it acknowledges things which other things generally seem to ignore, most of which I find worth acknowledging.

(Reply to this)


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